Ep. 9: An Evolving Faith Is Still Faith with Pete Enns

Written By Sarah Bessey

Hosted by Sarah Bessey and Jeff Chu

Featuring Pete Enns, Ph.D.

Have you ever been called a heretic? Unfaithful? Ostracized for changing your mind on something related to your faith or theology? Well, this week’s episode with popular biblical scholar, podcaster, and author Pete Enns is for you. Pete talks about the biblical mandate for an evolving faith, illustrates this concept through the stories of Jonah and Job, and the sacred responsibility we all bear of reimagining Scripture. Then Sarah and Jeff have a conversation about how taking the Bible seriously doesn’t mean taking it literally, their favorite stories that illustrate an evolving faith from the Bible, and the permission we all need to take a break from reading the Bible.

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Show Notes

Pete Enns, Ph.D.

Other Show Notes

The story Sarah tells about Peter and Cornelius is in Acts 10. She wrote about that here.

The story Jeff tells about the Ethiopian eunuch is in Acts 8.

Bible translations mentioned are King James version (KJV), New International Version (NIV), The Message (MSG), New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and the Common English Bible (CEB). The Hebrew Bible Jeff mentions is Robert Alter’s translation, which you can order from an independent bookstore or wherever you buy your books.

Patchouli is not the signature scent of Evolving Faith.

You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. Join our podcast community over on Facebook, The Evolving Faith Podcast After-Party.

You can find Jeff Chu on Instagram and Twitter. You can also subscribe to his newsletter Notes of a Make-Believer Farmer at jeffchu.substack.com.

You can find Sarah Bessey on Instagram and Twitter. You can also subscribe to her newsletter Field Notes at sarahbessey.substack.com. Learn more about her books here.

Special thanks to Audrey Assad and Wes Willison for the music on this episode. And thanks as always to our producer, Jordan Gass-Poore.

If you’d like to be featured on an upcoming episode, just call our voicemail inbox at +1 (616) 929-0409. Leave your first name and state or province and answer this question: How are you cultivating hope in the wilderness right now? It can be something small - a song, a poem, a practice - or something big. There are no wrong answers. Just please try to keep your answer to under a minute so we can feature a few of you every episode.

“Don’t let anybody tell you that if you don’t stick to the script exactly, there’s something wrong with you. You’re actually being very biblical and very Christian at that point. ”
— Pete Enns, Ph.D.
 

[IMAGE CONTENTS: Eight graphics with quotes from the episode. First graphic: White square with green flourishes with a photograph of Pete Enns and the Evolving Faith logo. Text reads: “An Evolving Faith is Still Faith. Ep. 9. Now Streaming. Featuring Pete Enns, Ph.D..” Remaining graphics are white squares and all have the same illustration of blue, green, and maroon illustrated dots and a line drawing of an open book with a plant growing out of the pages. All quotes unless otherwise specified are from Pete Enns. Text for the remaining graphics are as follows: 2. “An evolving faith is still faith.” 3. “God's always out ahead of the people. And the people are always trying to catch up to where God is going.” 4. Don't let anybody tell you that if you don't stick to the script exactly, there's something wrong with you. You're actually being very biblical and very Christian at that point.” 5. It's a sacred responsibility. And we don't get to get out of it.” 6. “We can ask questions of the text. It doesn’t need to be protected from our questions, just like God doesn’t need to be protected from our questions.” - Jeff Chu. 7. “My questions and doubts and curiosities about scripture were actually a sign of faithfulness not a sign of faith-less-ness.” - Sarah Bessey. 8. “Is the Bible Gwyneth Paltrow in this scenario or am I?” - Jeff Chu.]

 

Transcript 

SARAH: Hi friends, I’m Sarah Bessey.

JEFF: And I'm Jeff Chu.

SARAH: Welcome back to the Evolving Faith Podcast.

JEFF: This is a podcast for the wanderers, the misfits, and the spiritual refugees, to let you know you are not alone in the wilderness. We are all about hope and we're here to point each other to God. No matter where you are on your journey, no matter what your story is, you are welcome! And we're listening—to God, to one another, and to the world.

SARAH: The story of God is bigger, wider, more inclusive and welcoming, filled with more love, than we could ever imagine. There's room here for everyone.

JEFF: There is room here for you.

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JEFF: This is Episode 9 of the Evolving Faith Podcast! Just a reminder, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at @evolvfaith. We also have a very engaged and enthusiastic Facebook community called the Evolving Faith Podcast After-Party. Search for us on Facebook and come talk about these episodes with fellow wanderers. This week, friends, we are hearing from Pete Enns. What a wealth of wisdom and insight.

SARAH: It isn’t even fair. Most of you know that Rachel—Rachel Held Evans, who was my co-founder for Evolving Faith—deeply loved the Bible. And so from the beginning it has been a priority of ours to talk more openly about Scripture and our relationship with Scripture and also to normalize changing your mind about how we all read and interpret the Bible. So I actually got to know Pete through Rachel, because she utterly adored him, relied on him. And he is my favourite biblical curmudgeon, with a heart of gold. He has been such a faithful friend to this community for the last few years, and his work has been deeply meaningful to me in my own evolution around biblical interpretation and so I’m so grateful for his work and his witness, not just for our community but honestly for me personally. His work matters to me.

JEFF: So let me just acknowledge here that, in the Evolving Faith community, we have got very diverse and different relationships with Scripture. Many of us love it, still, even if we read it differently than we used to—or maybe because we read it differently than we used to. 

SARAH: Mmm. That’s good.

JEFF: And some of us struggle with it. Some of us are uncomfortable with many parts of Scripture—and I think much of it *should* make us uneasy. Some of us can’t stand the Bible or some parts of it. That’s real. The Bible has been misused. It’s been weaponized. It has become a tool, at times, for people with all manner of agenda, and many people have been hurt by that. I say this as someone who has had Scripture used against me. And Pete happens to love the Bible and teach a way of approaching the Bible that makes room for all this complexity. He has found a way to appreciate Scripture in all its complications and perhaps even its contradictions. And I just wanted to name that you might not be in that place right now, and if not, that’s okay.

SARAH: Yeah, it is. I mean, I think that’s a really good reminder. We’ve had some of those conversations in the after-party group. And so we wanted to make sure that we acknowledged and named and honored that. We honour you if your story with the Bible has been particularly painful or weaponized or broken. That’s true, and I hope we can speak gently and truthfully to this in a hospitable way. But honestly if you are not there, you are still so welcome here and we honour you. 

So let me do the official bio bit for Pete. Pete Enns is Abram S. Clemens professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University in St. Davids, Pennsylvania. Pete speaks and writes regularly to diverse audiences about the intersection of the ancient setting of the Bible and contemporary Christian faith. He also hosts the popular and wildly beloved podcast The Bible for Normal People, which we’ve both been guests on, so you can look up those episodes in particular if you like. He blogs at peteenns.com, and has written, edited, and contributed to over 20 books, which—I’ve done like three, and that just blows my mind—including The Sin of Certainty, The Bible Tells Me So, and most recently How the Bible Actually Works, which is a book that I have literally put into people’s hands when they have come to me with questions, like, “Read this, just read this.” Pete lives in suburban Philadelphia with his wife, Susan. And he is an utterly devoted father and grandfather, too - his delight in his life is a real joy to me.

JEFF: So what an official bio usually doesn’t tell you—and I don’t know who writes these things anyway—is that Pete has this wonderful dry wit and, as Sarah mentioned, a heart of gold. But, can I confess something? I was kind of scared of Pete when I first met him because he just seemed grumpy. And then I learned.

SARAH: I’m always afraid of academics. That’s just my base code setting. I think people like me who come from a faith background which is very suspicious of higher education and seminaries— I’m just always afraid of academics.

JEFF: Is that why you always give me such a hard time, because I went to seminary?

SARAH: No, that’s just because I love you. I think it’s… it might be, um, residual trauma I’m still shaking off? But Pete is one of my favourite academics. Because he is funny and warm and disarming. And he genuinely cares about Scripture and about how we read it, not just the people who are able to go to seminary or have access to that sort of information. He genuinely wants us to move from certainty around Scripture to wonder and curiosity and wisdom. And I’ll just add this too: I know we have to get to his talk. But if you have ever read one of Pete’s books, it is really hard to choose a favourite aspect of how he writes and teaches in those pages. But near the very tip top of my favourite things are his footnotes. He is so snarky and sarcastic and hilarious in his footnotes. So without any more fawning - which I know will make him deeply uncomfortable and so that’s part of why I think we’re enjoying it so immensely - let’s go ahead and listen together to Pete Enns speaking at Montreat, North Carolina, in October of 2018.

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PETE ENNS: I think what unites us, what makes us kindred spirits, is that we have something that we would call an evolving faith. Either it's been evolving or starting to evolve, or it's sort of run out of its energy to evolving, but there's something there that unites us all. And I think many of us have had experiences, including the people up here of— tell me if this rings a bell— of maybe being ostracized a bit. Or we've heard this today a few times,: losing your community. Right? We've all lost communities, I'm sensing that probably many of us have. Or maybe even an occasional name calling. And even a little bit of slander, maybe. That's happened. I mean, I don't know. Has anybody experienced that stuff? Or is it just me? Should I stop talking? Okay, perfect. Thank you. 

Yeah, like, you know, you're, you're crazy. Or you're a heretic. And they say it enough times, and you start believing it. I mean, you may be crazy and heretics. I actually have no earthly idea. I don't know. You look like nice people from a distance. Let's keep it that way. But the thing is, you're not crazy, and you're not a heretic, because your faith is evolving.

That's the issue. Evolving faith is faith. It's what it is. Faith doesn't stand still— never has, never will. It's as old as Judaism and Christianity. It's as old as the Bible. Are you writing stuff down? I’ll give you a proof text. This is a proof text for why there is an evolving faith in the Bible. You ready? The whole thing. All right? Everything. That's the proof text. And when you're told that you don't have a biblical faith, you're not taking this stuff seriously, because your faith is evolving, I think that's exactly backwards. 

You know, when you read the Bible, and some of you, I appreciate, may not read it anymore. I've needed breaks from the Bible. I've needed breaks from church. I've needed breaks from God. Right? But those of you do read the Bible, you've probably noticed that sometimes things don't match up very well. I read that... Wait a minute, like four books ago, it said the exact opposite, right?

It's called diversity. Or tensions. Or if you will contradictions in the Bible. Those are the things that many of us have been told for most of our lives, that's the bad stuff. In fact, it's not even there. Imagine it away, it's nothing. And what I feel what I've come to, what I've grown into, I guess you can say, is that that's actually the stuff that makes the Bible worth reading. Because when we see that diversity in the Bible, what we're watching is actually in the pages of the Bible, an evolving faith. We're seeing people at different times in different places, different circumstances, for different reasons— I like to use the word imagining God differently because of what they're going through. 

So what I get to do here for a few minutes is lock the doors so nobody can get out. Let's talk about the Bible a little bit. And just some examples. I mean, okay. I asked for 10 hours to talk. I asked respectfully, by the way. And they still said, No. So I'll have to cut this really short. But just a couple of moments from the Old Testament that, for me, this is when light bulbs started going off. And a few moments from the New Testament where other light bulbs started going off, that our Bible is really, it's moving. It's like God's always out ahead of the people. And the people are always trying to catch up to where God is going. You think God does this, but then, no, no, no, no, it's this over here. One example: One of my favorite books of the Bible is Job. This is why I have no friends, by the way. You know, I love the Book of Job, you know. Because here’s this guy Job who's suffering horribly, right? You know, the story. He's suffering. Why? Because God and this guy makes a bet. We're not going to talk about that part. It's a really weird book. But everything's taken away, you know? And his friends come to him. Right? And they say, Job, you seem to be suffering. Yeah, what did you do? Right? Now, where did they get an idea from? Well, I don't know if it's a fictional story anyway. But you know, it's where'd they get that idea from? That, that idea is in the Bible— a tit for tat, sort of reward and punishment view of God? Deuteronomy. Right? Don't read Deuteronomy to your kids, ever. If you do this, you'll be blessed. If you do this, you'll be cursed. Got it? Let me repeat: if you do this and be blessed with this. Job, it looks like you've been cursed pretty badly. What did you do? A natural question to ask.

And Job says, “I didn't do anything.” And they said, “Yeah, you did.” And Job says, “No, I didn't.” And they said, “You did.” And Job said, “No, well, maybe— No, I didn't do anything!” And this goes on for like 40 chapters, which is why people don't read Job. It just keeps going, right? But see, here's, here's the part that I love. You get to the end of the Book of Job. And where God appears in a whirlwind, you know that thing? And God says things like, “Were you there when I created the mountains and the seas and the this and the that?” Which is not really answering Job’s question of why he's suffering. This is God filibustering. This is, this is my dad saying, “Dad, why'd you take my allowance away?” “Were you there when you were born?” Well, actually, I was. “Do you go to work every morning?” Yeah, no, but I'm just— I need some justice over here. Right. And, you know, again, we can't get into all this stuff. But the last words that are Job's mouth are not submission, they're a challenge to God, saying, “I might as well just go away and die because none of this makes any sense.” Then God appears to Job and to the friends in the very last chapter of Job. And this is the— I love this part. This is where God says to one of Job's friends, “You have not spoken justly of me, as my servant Job has.” 

That sort of blows me away, because it's like, Alright, God, which is it? Is it the retributional tit for tat, you know, reward and punishment thing? Or is it, Yeah, sometimes we don't, our suffering can't be explained that way. You see, both of those things come from God. It's in the Bible. Is it God changing? I don't think so. I think it's people's perceptions of God change based on experience. And I think the Bible is full of this kind of, let's call it evolution of faith. 

Another example, I mean, one of my favorite stories, you all know the story of Jonah, right? There's Jonah, and God says, Come here. I want you to go to Nineveh and preach repentance to them. And Jonah says, “No.” Why does he say no? Because he's reasonable. That's why. You don't go to Nineveh. It’s the capital of Assyria, and the Assyrians are bad people. And they are a thorn in Israel for like 250 years. And if they catch you, and if you don't submit, they like impale you, tear the flesh off of you. And they're actually reliefs, ancient archaeological reliefs that show what the Assyrians did to Judahites who resisted. So Jonah says, I'm not going, because they might actually repent, and we wouldn't want that, now would we? Right. So he runs away to Tarshish, and he gets on this boat, and there's a storm, and he gets thrown overboard, and the fish swallows him. Anyway. And then he goes down to Sheol, to the abode of the dead, which is sort of a clue this is not a historical narrative. By the way, this is probably a metaphor of something, I don't know. So he goes down and then comes back up. It's sort of a resurrection story. It really is, actually. Not a Jesus-y resurrection story, but more a coming back to life kind of story, where he then does go preach repentance to the Ninevites. Very begrudgingly, if you remember. He basically says, “Uh, God's showing up, he's going to destroy you.” And then he walks away. And lo and behold, the sermon worked, and the Ninevites repent. And Jonah's like, I told you so, that's what would happen, right? And God says just shut up and go under a gourd and sit there and don't do anything. Anyway. Here's the point I'm getting to— I'm going somewhere with this. Give me a second. You move two books over the book of Nahum. And what do you have? You have an oracle against the Assyrians, against Nineveh. And what does God say? I want you dead. 

Here's the thing: Nahum is actually historically, it's within the realm of history. Because Nineveh was destroyed near 612 BC. And a lot of people were very happy about that, because that's like ISIS, you know? Just, we're done with this. Now, we don't have to deal with this anymore. Jonah is not a historical story. It's a fictional story. It's metaphorical. It's parabolic, whatever you want. And here's the thing: It's written after the exile, after the return from exile, when the Judahites had experiences of the other, right? And they lived next to them, they babysat their kids, they worked together, they got buried next, or whatever they did. Familiarity. And so they come back and they tell the story, thinking, Maybe God's not as tribalistic as we thought. Maybe God is— 

This is really a reimagining of what God is like. 

You know the gospel, you've heard of that, right, this New Testament thing? I mean, what is it? What is the gospel, if not a major reimagining of what God is like? The Christian faith doesn't exist without a major reimagining of what God is like. Now hear me: I am not saying a rejection of the God of Israel. I'm talking about a reimagining of the God of Israel. And if I had 10 hours, we would talk about how the Judahites after the exile were in this process of reimagining God again and again in different ways. And we get to the New Testament and there you have, for example, Paul saying, “You know what? Gentiles don't have to convert to Judaism to be full-fledged members of the people of God.”

Anybody here Gentile? Anybody here Christian? See? It's good news. Right? So. And, you know, Paul got opposition. Right? You're read in Galatians and Romans, for example, and a little bit in the book of Acts. He gets some opposition, for very good reason. Because other Jewish followers of Jesus, Paul's fellow Jews, were saying, “Paul, we're so happy that Gentiles get to come into the kingdom. And that's wonderful. But we've got this little thing called the Bible, and tradition. And you can't just make stuff up. You can't just— We have— God doesn't change his mind. God is consistent. There's no expiration date on the circumcision law. There's no expiration date on the dietary laws. That's from Mount Sinai. God spoke.” And Paul says, “Yeah, but no. There's something about Jesus that's new and that’s fresh.” And this is a major, major, major shift. Right? 

This isn't like following the script here. Jesus is here and people are trying to figure out what's going on here. Man, we could talk about land, temple, priesthood, sacrifice, all these things that are major issues in the Old Testament. Think of land, right? What is the Old Testament if it's not a story of land? It's more than that. But it's all about promise to Abraham, okay, you're going to be in Egypt for a while, but I'm going to get you out. So you go to the land. If you're obedient, you keep it; if you're disobedient, you get out. they disobey, they get out, they try to get back in. It's, it's all about the land. This is the sign of God's blessing. Where does the land promise show up in the New Testament?

I don’t know. It's not even the point anymore. Right? Jesus as Messiah, a reimagined way of God showing up. It's not about resurrecting Israel's monarchy and political independence the way so many people thought, including his own disciples. That's why Judas Iscariot lost patience. Right? And he had a point, actually. From a biblical point of view, he had a really good point. But Jesus is redefining even what “Messiah” means. This Messiah is not going to conquer; this Messiah is going to die. Oh, for other people? You know, that's, first of all, child sacrifice is like the worst thing you can do in the Old Testament. That and worship other gods. And here, Jesus is sacrificed? To atone for something? Who's making— Are we just making this up as we go along? Right? It's reimagining God. You know why? Just like you, because you have to. Something happens that you have to account for. I read the whole New Testament this way: as people of faith, trying to work out the implications of this Jesus moment. And saying, What does this do to our faith, which is the ancient faith of Judaism and the Israelites? What does this Jesus moment do to change?

God's doing stuff I can't figure out. A crucified Messiah? Where it's a sacrifice, but we're not sacrificing anything to God, God's giving the Son on our behalf. It's backwards. How do you get this? What is this? This makes no sense, right? But it's a new thing. God is doing a new thing. This is wonderful. I think this is very good news. 

But the main point is this: Our Bible works, our faith works, because you have, periodically, these acts of reimagining God. Without that, we don't have our Christianity. That's why: Don't let anybody tell you that if you don't stick to the script exactly, there's something wrong with you. You're actually being very biblical and very Christian at that point. See, the issue is not, should we reimagine God? But the issue is, will be reimagine God well, right here and right now? And that is not something we do begrudgingly. Not like, Oh, no, we shouldn't mess with that. No, you’d better do it. It's a sacred responsibility. It's always been a sacred responsibility—for Judaism, New Testament, and the whole history of Christianity, doing this sort of stuff again and again and again. And we don't get to get out of it. We get to actually jump into this and think as a community: What does it mean for God to show up now? 

Right, the peace of God that passes all understanding guard your hearts and your minds, in the knowledge and love of God our Creator, and of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the blessings of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be among you this day and remain with you always. Amen. 

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JEFF: Friends, if you’ve been listening to and loving the Evolving Faith Podcast, join us for Evolving Faith 2020, the Live Virtual Conference, on October 2 and 3. Which is coming up soon!

SARAH: Many of us are engaging in good, hard, holy work right now to dismantle white supremacy, cultivate love, and reimagine and build a faith that works not only for us but for the whole world, and to find our way in the wilderness together. We need to be reminded of what matters, who is alongside us. We need connection and inspiration, good conversation and laughter and, who are we kidding, probably (definitely) even some tears. 

JEFF: We need some hope. We are gathering not in spite of these turbulent times, but because of them. Our speakers  this year not only Sarah and me but Jen Hatmaker, Sherrilyn Ifill, Chanequa Walker-Barnes, Kate Bowler, Padraig O Tuama, Monica Coleman, Nichole Nordeman, Nadia Bolz-Weber, Barbara Brown Taylor, and so many others. You don’t want to miss a minute of this. 

SARAH: And don’t forget: Your registration gives you full access to all of the content until April 1, 2021. We have set a big, rowdy table in the middle of this wilderness, and together, we will have a feast. We saved a spot for you. Go to evolvingfaith.com and register today. You do not want to miss this moment with this community, It’s pretty special. Okay now back to the show.

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JEFF: “Evolving faith is faith.” That line. That line really spoke to me. It was this rebuke against this fear I’d believed, even if I couldn’t name it. When I was younger, I believed faith was this thing, this singular thing, that you either had or you didn’t. And then, as your faith changes, you become someone who is the subject of prayer requests, which can be a startling thing. Because you want to say, Wait, I still have faith; it just looks a little different than it used to. But those others’ voices can get in your head. And you start to wonder: Am I as faithless as they say I am? Also: You want to tell them to stop giving you that pity face. In my case, I could almost always say, I’m still interested in Scripture; I just don’t read it like I used to, but that doesn’t mean I honor it less.

SARAH: You know, I think that’s a common experience for a lot of us in this community and in our lives. And it can hurt to be called a heretic or to be accused of not taking Scripture seriously, simply because we’re evolving in how we read and interpret it. It’s—let’s be honest— it’s also scary. We worry that we may go too far or that the price may be too high. I’ve often said, “Taking the Bible seriously doesn’t mean taking everything literally.” But for a lot of people who have been told there is one way to read and interpret Scripture—and it’s their particular way—it’s jarring to realize that there are whole communities of people who read and interpret the Bible differently and are people of faith and are living it faithfully. I think that knowledge and that community actually helped to save my relationship with Scripture. Because if I had to keep reading the Bible like I had been initially taught, in the faith tradition I came of age in, which was more of a prosperity gospel way, I would be long gone. Learning from people like Pete that my questions and doubts and curiosities about Scripture were actually a sign of faithfulness, not a sign of faithlessness, it kept me near Scripture. 

JEFF: I went to a Christian school in high school, and looking back, I see how there was a tension between these men who would stand up on Fridays during chapel and tell us “X is clear in Scripture” and “Y is clear in Scripture,” and then there was a class that one of the best English teachers at the school taught called “The Bible as Literature.” That opened a door to me realizing that there were layers to these texts and different kinds of effort needed to understand them from different angles. Not that I fully understood it at the time, because sometimes it takes a while for those lessons to sink in.

SARAH: For some of us more than others. I want to talk about something that Pete mentioned that I think our community needed to hear, needs to hear. And that is when he said something about needing to take a break from the Bible. I have definitely taken breaks from the Bible. I have needed to take a break from the Bible. I have had to take big long breaks from church too. Have you ever had that experience?

JEFF: For sure. I don’t know that I ever said, I am now officially having a trial separation with Scripture. But it just sort of happened. 

SARAH: Oh, a conscious uncoupling perhaps.

JEFF: Sarah. That’s so weird.

SARAH: So weird.

JEFF: So in that context, is the Bible Gwyneth Paltrow or am I?

SARAH: That depends. Are you selling lotions and potions for hundreds of dollars?

JEFF: I wish. Would I be doing this podcast if I were? 

SARAH: If Evolving Faith had a signature scent, what do you think it would be? 

JEFF: I really hope not patchouli. I have no grace in my heart for patchouli. Okay,  seriously, I did have a season where I tried to walk away from faith altogether—and I mean “faith” when I say that, not just “church.” I felt like I was done with God, religion, all the things that I felt had been oppressive, and Scripture was a part of that whole complex. 

SARAH: Mmhmm. I think that that’s an experience a lot of people in our community have had on some level, but I’ve noticed that even something as simple as reading the Bible for instance in a new translation helped me then. So for instance, I was introduced to Scripture you know in the King James translation or the New King James translation, and so when I returned to the Bible after needing a break years ago, even some of the particular phrases or language made it hard for me to come back to those pages, so I made a point of reading it in The Message paraphrase a lot because I needed different language to not skip over the things I thought I already knew or to reimagine certain stories and invitations again. I’ve used different translations in my books to do the same thing -to  make people read the words they think they already know. Other translations have also done that for me, you know, since then as well.

JEFF: At first I wasn’t even ready for a new translation. I needed time. I needed more time. But there were little bits of Scripture that had wormed their way inside me, and you know how I feel about worms and the magic of their transformation. So this is not a bad thing. For instance, there’s a short section of Isaiah 40 that would keep popping into my mind: Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. So I still have some feelings about the NIV, which is what I grew up with, but that’s from the NIV version, and I love it because it says “hope” as opposed to “trust in” or “wait upon,” which is what other versions have. Anyway, my feelings about the NIV are probably more about me and my unresolved baggage than they are about the translators or whatever. Now, I’m much more likely to read the NRSV, and then when I get irritated at some of the really poorly structured, opaque sentences, then I’ll look at the CEB. And if you’re into the Hebrew Bible, I fell in love last year with Robert Alter’s translation. But I totally agree with you, Sarah, that trying a new translation can be transformative and open the text up to us in new ways when we get to that point where we’re closer to ready.

SARAH: Yeah, because I think sometimes you just need a break and that’s fine. Because God isn’t confined to the Bible. If you need a break, take a break for heaven’s sake and trust that the Spirit can meet with you and abide with you where you are able to be right now.

JEFF: I think that’s a really important thing to name. Sometimes Christian culture has elevated the Bible to God-like status. And we’ve made an idol of Scripture.

SARAH: Listen, I come from a Word Faith background and that is 100% true. We elevated the Bible to a fourth member of the Trinity. And in particular our interpretation of it. 

JEFF: Sarah, that’s not good math. A Trinity, even the Holy Trinity? it can’t be four.

SARAH: I have never claimed math skills. Or scienc-ing as evidenced in our Mike McHargue episode.

JEFF: But you can count to three.

SARAH: Under duress. As a total aside, I love how Pete does that professor thing of saying something totally explosive to some people, like it’s not a big deal. How he’s like, Oh and by the way, Jonah isn’t historically accurate and it’s likely a metaphor, carrying on, anyway! I remember looking out and seeing some folks' heads tilt like “WHAT?” but he just carries on. Enjoy your disorientation, bye! That is like some big biblical scholar energy there.

JEFF: I think it’s just another day, hour, second at the office for Pete. I think he revels in it. But there’s something important in that too, because I know I can invest too much meaning in every little thing. So maybe it’s a way of puncturing our certainties. It’s a way that he reminds us to have some humility amidst all this. We can ask questions of the text. It doesn’t need to be protected from our questions, just like God doesn’t need to be protected from our questions.

SARAH: So let’s talk a little bit then about the examples he brought up. Because to me that was very instructive, to see that the story of the Bible is actually the story of an evolving faith. I confess I’ve actually never particularly loved the stories of Job and Jonah, they haven’t really been big ones for me. But I can point to other stories that showed me that evolving faith. So what are some of your favourite stories in Scripture where you see that same idea modeled? Or are you a big Job guy like Pete?

JEFF: I like Job. What do you have against Job? I guess I have a soft spot for suffering. I guess you’re a little more hard-hearted and less compassionate than I am.

SARAH: You heard it here first, folks!

JEFF: Haha. I know your brand is bleeding heart. But anyway. So this is on a very different scale, but as far as stories of evolving faith go, I love the story of the Ethiopian eunuch. 1) It’s a travel story. Every story of evolving faith is a travel story. 2) He’s in dialogue. He talks to Philip, and they engage with stories and with one another, and they walk together spiritually for a bit. They make a little impromptu community. 3) The eunuch asks if he can be baptized in a puddle of water, which means he’s interrogating the boundaries. He’s essentially asking, What is faithfulness? Can I be faithful here and now? And I love that. I love that.

SARAH: I love that story too. Um, one of mine is actually the story of Peter and Cornelius in the Book of Acts. I mean, of course I love the books of Acts more than Job - that’s probably somewhere in my brand. But it’s in Acts 10 and it’s the story of Peter having this vision of what he had been taught to consider unclean food and he has this vision of a sheet coming down from the heavens with all that kind of food, and refusing to eat it, and then a voice, the spirit of God, telling him that it is actually clean to eat. And then this centurion comes and Peter goes to his house and he realizes that the vision was actually not about food but about Cornelius and all the Gentiles and he just explodes in that moment with the good news that God plays no favorites and everyone is welcome at the table of the Lord, including these people we’ve been taught to see and view as unclean, and the door has been opened. And they have another second little mini Pentecost right there. I love that story. It shows Peter’s evolution as part of scripture and as an act of faithfulness. It was faithful for him to reimagine a bigger table, a wider welcome. And to say that the outsiders are now insiders too.

JEFF: Look, I’m all for a good outsiders and food story in the Bible. But I feel like the Old Testament needs a little love right now, since you have declared your utter lack of love for Job and Jonah. 

SARAH: It’s not a lack of— Okay. Carry on.

JEFF: I think many of the psalms are mini-capsules of spiritual evolution. I mean, these prayers and songs, they’re a journey, right? They begin in places of despair, some sink even lower, even to the point of blaming God. And then most, but not all of them, end in some kind of hope or some kind of praise. That is evolution. We can see, in much more graphic clarity than we usually admit, how messy the lived and spoken and sung experience of faith can be. And it’s right there in Scripture.

SARAH: No, that’s true. I think the Bible is often more honest than we are honest about the Bible. And I think that’s a good way to wrap up this episode. We’re not the anomaly. We’re actually part of the story. And as Pete said there in his talk, there is permission and welcome and hospitality in Scripture precisely for an evolving faith. He said, “Our Bible works, our faith works because you have these acts of reimagining God. Without that we don't have our Christianity. That's why don't let anybody tell you that if you don't stick to the script exactly, there's something wrong with you. You're actually being very biblical and very Christian at that point.” So you know, I pray that we would be a people who understand and embrace that, that you’re being faithful. You’re even being biblical to wrestle with the text and be made uncomfortable by it. That the Bible chronicles so many reimaginations of God, and it invites and welcomes us to participate too. 

JEFF: As we always say at the top of the show, the story of God is bigger and wider and filled with more love than we could imagine. I am convinced there is room for faithful reimagining. I am convinced there is room for us to ask big questions about who God is and who, in the context of that, we are called to be. 

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LIZ: Hi, my name is Liz and I live in Kansas. I am cultivating faith and hope right now just by all the activism I am seeing from young people, especially high school age, on social media, seeing them sharing concerns about things like LGBTQ rights, Black Lives Matter, even the recent explosion in Lebanon, safe school reopenings. There is a teenager I know who lives in this area, she was able to start a petition that got 500 signatures for safe school reopening. So I’m just encouraged by the activism and it gives me hope for the future.

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SARAH: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Evolving Faith Podcast. You can find all of the links mentioned, including to the Bible stories we just talked about, info about Pete Enns and his work, info about how to call in to share your own voices with us, and a full transcript in our show notes at evolvingfaith.com/podcast. You can buy Pete’s books—and all our other speakers’ books—at bookshop.org/shop/evolvingfaith. You can find me at sarahbessey.com for all of my social media, my newsletter, and of course my books. Jeff, your turn.

JEFF: Ma’am, yes, ma’am. Sarah says I have to say what my social media handles are, even though I have a tortured relationship with social media. 

SARAH: Hey, l torment you. That’s my job. You thwart me, I torment you, and we are going to live happily ever after. 

JEFF: I am somewhat happily on Instagram at @byjeffchu. I’m sort of on Twitter too, but I’m taking a break. It’s complicated. The Evolving Faith Podcast is produced by us, Sarah Bessey and Jeff Chu, along with Jordan Gass-Poore. Thank you to Audrey Assad and Wes WIllison for our music. We will be back next week with an episode featuring Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns, who is just a magical human being. I feel as if she has a hotline to the Holy Spirit. So join us next week. And until next time - remember that you are loved.

 

 

Sarah Bessey
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