Ep. 7: The End of the World with Mike McHargue
Hosted by Sarah Bessey and Jeff Chu
Featuring Mike McHargue AKA Science Mike
Mike McHargue is one part Bill Nye the Science Guy and one part Mr. Rogers - and one part Baptist preacher. This week, Science Mike delivers a hilarious and devastating call to repentance as he expounds on climate change, the limits of science, the possibilities of faith, and the end of the world. Then Sarah and Jeff explore mysticism, certainty, and leaving religion - but leave the science-ing to Mike.
P.S. This episode features some adult language. Again.
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Show Notes
Register now for Evolving Faith 2020: Live Virtual Conference. October 2-3, 2020.
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Mike McHargue
You can follow Evolving Faith on Twitter and Instagram. Join our podcast community over on Facebook, The Evolving Faith Podcast After-Party.
You can find Jeff Chu on Instagram. You can also subscribe to his newsletter Notes of a Make-Believer Farmer at jeffchu.substack.com.
You can find Sarah Bessey online at sarahbessey.com. You can also subscribe to her newsletter Field Notes at sarahbessey.substack.com. Learn more about her books here.
Special thanks to Audrey Assad and Wes Willison for the music on this episode. And thanks as always to our producer, Jordan Gass-Poore.
If you’d like to be featured on an upcoming episode, just call our voicemail inbox at +1 (616) 929-0409. Leave your first name and state or province and answer this question: How are you cultivating hope in the wilderness right now? It can be something small - a song, a poem, a practice - or something big. There are no wrong answers. Just please try to keep your answer to under a minute so we can feature a few of you every episode.
“I am here to love science and love faith, and also to talk trash about both. ”
[IMAGE CONTENTS: Twelve graphics with quotes from the episode. First graphic: White square with green, maroon, and brown illustrated bubbles floating at the top with the Evolving Faith logo and a photograph of Mike McHargue. Text reads: “The End of the World. Episode 7. Now Streaming. with Mike McHargue.” Remaining graphics are white squares and all have the same illustration of blue, green, and maroon illustrated dots and a line drawing of an open book with a plant growing out of the pages. All quotes unless otherwise specified are from Mike McHargue. Text for the remaining graphics are as follows: 2. “ I’m here to love science and love faith, and also to talk trash about both.” 3. “When an overwhelming consensus of climate scientists say that the climate is warming right now, and that human activity is the primary driver, science is right. And your evangelical uncle is wrong.” 4. “ At least seven out of ten days, I am an atheist.” 5. “You can’t have economies without ecosystems.” 6. “I thought people would make pilgrimages to me to learn how to not know shit about God.” 7. “Folks, we are lukewarm, and right now we're being spit out of the mouth by God. Because we care more about our comfort and our tweets and what people think about us than the fabric of the world in which we live.” 8. “What I'm telling you without a hint of irony is that the time for repentance has come.” 9. “We have 11 years to repent, or the end is near.” 10. “I think there is no better way to walk forward into something new - whatever the future holds - than with the bread and wine and a blessing from those who represent your former life.” - Sarah Bessey. 11. “Good science-ing!” - Sarah Bessey. 12. “Certainty, whether it’s scientific certainty or the spiritual kind, is an idol that has been so costly to us because as we chase it, we lose sight of so much else.” - Jeff Chu.]
Transcript
JEFF: Hi friends, I’m Jeff Chu.
SARAH: And I'm Sarah Bessey.
JEFF: Welcome back to The Evolving Faith Podcast.
SARAH: This is a podcast for the wounded, the misfits, and the spiritual refugees to let you know you are not alone in the wilderness. We're all about hope and we're here to point fellow wanderers to God. No matter where you are on your journey, no matter what your story is, you are welcome! We're listening - to God, to one another, and to the world.
JEFF: The story of God is bigger, wider, more inclusive and welcoming, filled with more love, than we could ever imagine. There's room here for everyone.
SARAH: There's room here for you.
JEFF: Welcome to Episode 7 of the Evolving Faith Podcast! This week, we are revisiting a straight-up sermon from our beloved friend Mike McHargue, also known as Science Mike. But before we get started, a reminder that Evolving Faith 2020 tickets are now on sale. Our wilderness looks a bit different this year and so we’ve shifted to a live virtual conference. It’s on October 2-3 - but you will have access to the videos on demand until April 1, 2021 as well. We are welcoming incredible leaders like Kate Bowler, Chanequa Walker-Barnes, Barbara Brown Taylor, Sherilyn Ifill, Jen Hatmaker, Propaganda, and so many more. Text a few of your friends, make plans for a safe socially distanced get-together, and block off your calendar for a thought provoking, hopeful, hilarious, and powerful weekend with us. Pretty sure I will cry. But so will you maybe.
SARAH: It’s not Evolving Faith without Jeff’s tears.
JEFF: Jeff, Jeff’s tears - the fuel for Evolving Faith. Go to evolvingfaith.com for more information and to register now and to buy a pint of my tears.
SARAH: Also, friends don’t forget - we love to hear from you! One of the things I love about this community is that we get to learn from each other and your hope is contagious. If you would like to be featured in an upcoming episode of the Evolving Faith podcast, just call 616 929 0409 and tell us where you are finding hope out here in the wilderness. 616 929 0409. Stick around until the end of the show to hear voices from the community - it’s one of our favourite parts of this podcast.
SARAH: All right today we are so excited to bring you a talk from Mike McHargue. Yes, Science Mike! Let me give the bit of the bio here: Mike is a wildly popular podcaster, author, consultant, and speaker. In pre-COVID 19 days, he travelled the world helping people understand how science affects our most profound life experiences and the science behind those experiences. He is the author of two books. The first one was “Finding God in the Waves: How I Lost My Faith and Found It Through Science” and he just released a most wonderful follow-up, “You’re A Miracle and A Pain in the Ass: Embracing the Emotions, Habits, and Mystery That Make You You.”
He hosts the Ask Science Mike podcast. He was also co-founded The Liturgists and was a host of The Liturgists Podcast until 2019. Mike now lives in Los Angeles, CA with his wife Jenny - who is an absolute delight, if you have ever had the privilege of meeting Jenny then you know. They have two daughters and their beloved dog, Ruby.
JEFF: It’s been such a delight to get to know Mike, and one of the things I appreciate about him is his bracing candor, especially about himself. He’s incredibly courageous, whether it’s talking about the twists and turns of his faith journey or being autistic or his experiences with depression or his growing understanding of justice and equity. And then there’s also his boundless curiosity. Which might be annoying except that it’s all wrapped up with this gentle, warm spirit—and maybe that’s the thing I would want people to know most about Science Mike: he has such a beautifully tender heart.
SARAH: He really does. He really does. And also he’s funny. If we didn’t love him so much, we’d probably resent him. Like, should someone be so smart, so curious, so good-hearted, such a good friend, and also effortlessly hilarious? It’s not fair. I will also add that during the pandemic he has grown a beautiful and truly epic pandemic beard - it’s a work of art. Go check out his Instagram if you want to get look at that.
I remember Rachel used to say that Mike is one of the most encouraging friends to have in this business. And I have seen that that is the case over and over again. For instance, one thing that springs to my mind is that when you are an author, or a speaker, kind of in this space, we all get books in the mail almost constantly - which sounds like such a flex - but it's just part of life. You know, publishers will send you, your books and hope that you'll talk about them or like them or promote them. But Mike always insists on buying the books of his friends. And so we'll be like, Hey, I'm going to put a copy of my book in the mail for you. And he's like, I've already pre ordered it and it's bought. So I appreciate that about him. He has always been so supportive of his fellow writers and speakers. Mike wields his platform in such a humble and thoughtful way. And he is someone who stewards his privilege well, both publicly but I want people to know he's also doing that in private.
JEFF: He has done so much work to recognize that privilege and to use it for good. I respect that, and I respect him so much. As always, a word of warning - there is some grown-up language in this episode. Friends, we’re honored to bring you Mike McHargue, speaking at the first Evolving Faith gathering, in Montreat, North Carolina.
MIKE MCHARGUE: Well hello. Yes my voice is gaining. Hi, good to see you. I'm Science Mike. I am without question the least qualified person at any point in the program to be on stage. So follow your dreams. And you too can be a D-list Internet podcast celebrity.
Okay. That's what I'm talking about.
So if you are one of the people going, who is this guy on stage and why’s he calling himself Science Mike, you might have a question later at the meet and greet. And that question might be, “What's your science background?”
It's very simple.
I went to community college for six amazing weeks. And then I dropped out and pursued a career in technology and advertising. So I don't actually have any science background, but I am autistic and I read all the time. Okay. So that's one. Number two. What qualifies me to talk about science and faith? Well, I was ordained as a deacon in the Southern Baptist church. And yes, I, you can tell I'm from the deep south because I say Bab-dist. The b-a-b-d-i-s-t, the Southern Ba”b”dist Church, okay.
But they I don't want to continue to extend that honor to this post-theistic United Methodist who is affirming of all consensual marriage. So I am a de-ordained college dropout. But I'm gregarious and affable. So hopefully, we'll have a good time here.
Not a scientist, not a pastor and I don't understand why there's this so-called tension between science and faith. Both get caricatured all the time, they get turned into like false monolithic entities.
Guess what, there's like a lot of different faith traditions in the world. They don't believe the same shit, they believe different shit. Also, there's different schools of thought and science and science is sometimes oddly inconsistent. We say that scientists don't use the word ‘theory’ the way popular audiences do, a capital T theory. Like the Theory of evolution, or the Theory of gravity is said to be consistent, is said to be supported by evidence. But then they go around and say string theory, like that's not just really informed conjecture, right? And the science isn’t perfect and then I can't help but notice that both science and religion tend to enshrine the opinions of white men's insights with institutional authority. Both have an awfully strong bent towards patriarchy, and towards white supremacy. And both are very reticent to admit it, much less mitigate it, right?
So I come to love science and love faith, and also to talk trash about both.
And the other thing is, when you hear someone say science and faith, you might think of, I don't know, a giant replica of the Ark of the Covenant, in roughly this part of the world. And I just want to be really clear, I'm not that kind of a science and faith person.
In fact, some folks from that fine institution once said that I was a greater danger to Christianity than Richard Dawkins, which I put on the back of my business card.
So I feel like when people say, I don't think there's any conflict between science and faith, they either don't understand science, or they don't understand faith.
There are absolutely conflicts between these completely incomparable things.
Let's start with the simple idea that religion is a spiritual philosophy, a way of living in organization, right? And spiritualities or our philosophies we use to understand things unseen. Science is not a worldview. There's no science worldview. There's no science philosophy. Science is built on - it's a methodology - built on a philosophy called empiricism. And empiricism, it's really simple. We put confidence in beliefs in proportion to the falsifiable and verifiable evidence we have to support that belief.
You all understand science now, it's beautiful. I watched the entire room track perfectly with those notes. The thing about science is over time, because it shows its work - with admitted flaws in the peer review process today - it shows its work, and it gets to increasingly confident views over time. So it means that there's dead ends and there's regressions in science. We follow something, and we figure out, oh wait, no, that's, that's probably not true. I suspect we're getting to that era in string theory, by the way. But I'm not smart enough to back that up.
So we had these false starts. But over time, things get better. So scientists once believed, like everyone else, that the Earth was the center of the universe. Turned out that wasn't the case. The sun is the center of our solar system. And well, everything is the center of the universe. And science, when it kind of put its foot down using evidence and the brilliance of a man named Isaac Newton, could say with great confidence that the Earth was not the center of the universe. And it won, science was right. And then science said that the universe was billions of years old. And that it emerged from a singularity into something called a Big Bang, which is actually a terrible name, because it implies something banged into something. The universe didn't come from a point, infinite space was compressed nearly infinitely, but it was still infinite. So we all got that, no problem. My point is, when science talks about the age of the universe, and the Big Bang, and religious people say otherwise, the religious people are wrong. All our opinions are not equal about how the universe came to be. Science and religion were in conflict and science won.
And by the way, when an overwhelming consensus of climate scientists say that the climate is warming right now, and that human activity is the primary driver, science is right. And your evangelical uncle is wrong. Okay, I'm gonna warn you. Right now, I'm preaching to the choir, but about two minutes and 30 seconds, I'm going to stomp on your toes. So enjoy the clapping. For now.
Science has an incredible tradition of kicking religious fundamentalists’ ass just up and down the court. I think they use courts in sports. I don't know. Science can't do everything though. So let's talk about the limitations of science. This is important, If I do nothing else in my life, but well, I kind of, like my goal, I realized is like, I kind of want to be like Bill Nye. Get everybody excited and more knowledgeable about science. But I also kind of want to be like Mr. Rogers and tell everybody that they're special and loved just the way they are. So we're going to try to hit that intersection. Hopefully, you'll agree by the end.
So here's four things science can't do. I want you to, I want you to know this.
One. Science cannot make moral decisions or value judgments. It's completely impossible to make a moral or value judgment using the scientific method. Science can't tell you what to do with the insights that science produces. Science can tell you how to split atoms, but it can't tell you if you should power cities or destroy them, using that insight. That requires moral philosophies.
Science doesn't make aesthetic judgment. Science can't tell you if something is beautiful or not.
And science does not draw conclusions about anything beyond the natural world or anything supernatural.
Now you'll say, wait a minute. Richard Dawkins, who is an amazing evolutionary biologist, by the way, would say that, well, there's no evidence for God. Well, that's true. But the method of science could only measure any interaction God made with the world but not God's self, if God is in some way beyond our physical reality. Therefore, atheism is not a worldview, but a lack of belief in God. And humanism, secular humanism, especially, is a moral philosophy that gets conflated with science, but isn't actually science. Now don't get me wrong. I think atheism is super reasonable. At least seven out of ten days, I am an atheist.
By the way, we've welcomed believers and doubters. Can I take a moment to welcome the skeptics? Could I take a moment to welcome those of you who are atheists here on some kind of anthropological exploration? Welcome.
And could I take a moment to say, based on my experience, in my work, some of you, this is a turning point. You got in a room full of people and didn't feel lonely anymore. And like, you just feel like God's kissing you right on the cheek. And I'm so happy for you.
But for others of you, this is your last hurrah. And from this point on, you're going to go join my secularist and atheist friends. And can I get just say, if that is leading you towards health, and beauty and growth, I'm so excited to be a part of your permanent departure from religion. So.
Science can't tell us what to do with scientific insights. Science doesn't make moral judgments. So science can't tell us what to do with the carbon footprint of white supremacy,
It can merely tell us that it exists. Science can't tell us what to do with the sociological and ecological costs of predatory capitalism, it can merely tell us that they exist.
I don't know if you know this. But we have this debate in America about the environment versus the economy. And as someone who understands biology, do you know what an economy is? A specialized type of ecosystem. You don't have economies without ecosystems. You think you're worried about a stock market crash? Let the planet keep warming. I mean, there's a recent report, last couple of weeks, the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change came out with a report, I can summarize it in two words: we're screwed.
We've got the Paris Accords, we're trying to limit global climate change to two degrees Celsius, ideally one and a half. And this report says that the Paris Accords, which we've conveniently are in the process of backing out of, would limit warming on this planet to three and a half degrees. At three and a half degrees, folks, you start wondering if Revelation is a literal prophecy. At five degrees, you don't wonder at all.
So this, this report says we've got to cut our emissions in the next 11 years or we start realizing truly horrific impacts from climate change by 2040. That's not your great grandkids lifetimes.
So what does science tell me? We are eating the earth.
European capitalism and American capitalism aren't just marginalizing people. It's destroying the very air and soil we depend on. But science can't tell me what to do with that knowledge.
I was an atheist for a few years. And I read about an astronaut named Edgar Mitchell, who stood on the surface of the moon, and looked back at the earth. And when people stand in space and look back at the earth, everyone has the same kind of crazy, existential, mystical experience when they realize everything is happening. All human life is happening in their view. And it's tiny and it's fragile. And it's precious. And Edgar Mitchell says, ”It makes you want to come back to the earth and grab a politician by the scruff of his neck and drag him a quarter million miles into space and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch.’ Out there international politics seem petty when you realize we’re, we’re the slime on a rock in a river.”
Folks, we don't have to save the planet, the planet will be fine. The very worst climate change we can imagine, sulphur eating bacteria will think it's a buffet.
But we need to save the humans.
I once had my own overview of fact, I didn't go to space sadly. And believe me, I would. I've warned Jenny if someone offers me a one way trip to Mars where I get to Mars, I can survive five days and then die, I am gone. Where do I sign? Yes.
But I had my own overview of fact, I stood on the beach once as an atheist. And I saw like a ball of light in the air. And that light moved towards me. And it covered my whole field of vision. And I just saw light everywhere. And there was this presence in the light. And the light made me feel loved. And a moment after I felt loved, I became aware of this divine love for all people and all life on earth. And then the light went away. And I thought that was beautiful. And I can't believe I have brain cancer.
And I went on like a multi-year thing of trying to figure out what that light was because I didn't know about mysticism. Then I read about mysticism and thought it was an Islamic thing and thought I could be a Christian mystic. And because I grew up Baptist, I thought I invented Christian mysticism. Like I thought, I thought people would make pilgrimages to me to learn how to not know shit about God. Like it was just going to be great. Well, what? What's God like? I don't know. What does the Bible teaches about God? I have no idea. So I've grown a little and I learned that yes, that Christian mysticism predates me by some time. People wrote a lot about it.
And I'm a skeptic. A huge portion of my brain is still an atheist. I really am a materialist. Most days I find empty tombs to be a rather incredulous notion if I'm honest. Someone emailed me recently and said, “Mike, I'm praying for you every day. And I don't believe in intercessory prayer.” And I thought, Ah, you complete me, right?
White supremacy has a carbon footprint. Predatory capitalism has a cost. Science can't tell me what to do about it.
Do you know what that light, as interpreted by this library we call the Bible tells me: the wages of sin is death. You know, my faith tells me? that one thing that Christians and atheists, especially progressive Christians can agree on is the climate is changing. And it's something we can worry about later.
Folks, we are lukewarm, and right now we're being spit out of the mouth by God. Because we care more about our comfort and our tweets and what people think about us than the fabric of the world in which we live.
And judgment is coming.
You can take the boy out of the Baptist Church.
What I'm telling you without a hint of irony is that the time for repentance has come.
And repentance is not an idea. And repentance is not a special prayer. Repentance is a way of turning your life away from destruction and towards the peace of shalom. And who knows how to do that?
The New Testament describes Jesus as a Palestinian under Roman occupation. That there's a wisdom from someone who has no political power and no economic might. What's the percentage of Black women who didn't vote for Donald Trump? 93, 95? We're ignoring this wisdom, so freely available because we don't want to admit that we are fallen sinners, bent on self destruction.
We have 11 years to repent, or the end is near.
SARAH: Oh, he wasn’t kidding. You can take the boy out of the “Babdist” Church but you can’t take the hell-fire-and-brimstone sermon out of the boy. Mike, he disarms you with laughter and then next thing you know, you’re looking for an aisle to walk down to get your life right with Jesus while “I Surrender All” plays quietly.
JEFF: But he’s right. We are lukewarm. And we do need to repent. The planet is aching, and here we are making a podcast.
SARAH: Well, thanks.
JEFF: You knew I was the world’s worst marketer--you knew that. When Mike says, “We’re being spit out of the mouth by God,” it was like he was channeling Jonathan Edwards.
SARAH: Yeah, you know, one thing I really appreciated about this is that he actually didn't resolve it, or tie it up in a bow, right? So we're there in the moment. And all of a sudden it was over. He just said, we've got 11 years to repent. And the end is near and just literally walked off the stage. It was sobering and startling. It was sobering because it was true. It has only become more true in the years since then. We’ve got now nine years. And even this time of global pandemic as utterly devastating as it has been, has also proven the impact of humans on the planet - in some places, we’ve seen like wilderness came back, animals being seen again, you could see the stars in our cities again, and that’s because we all went home and stayed home for a while. It proved the case: we are the problem and the solution and Mike’s point about climate change is about saving humans. You can’t have economies without ecosystems. And then he just dropped the mic.
JEFF: People didn’t even know it was over. It was like, Wait, what? I think in refusing to hew to the conventions of public speaking, he did a powerful thing. Because otherwise I might wonder whether he’s letting us off too easy, giving us something so funny, so disarming. But he leaves us with a serious thing and, I guess, as I understand it, he basically says: You have to deal with this. This is your problem. This is our problem. And it is our problem. We’re just finishing up a 10-day heat wave in Michigan. Siberia is melting. Northern white whales just got added to the critically endangered species list; do you know how bad things have to be for a creature to be acknowledged by this presidential administration as critically endangered? So the planet is in terrible shape, and it’s all interwoven with all manner of injustice and fundamentally our selfishness. So Mike is doing what, I think, all good storytellers do, which is that he’s taking what we want to be clear and complicating that narrative, suggesting that things might not be quite so orderly as we would like them to be.
SARAH: He does complicate the narrative. And I love him for that. Another way he did that in that talk was actually when he bid a very fond farewell to those who saw Evolving Faith as their last hurrah with Christianity. And people laughed when he said it but those words and that permission, mattered. At the end of every Evolving Faith, we have communion together. It has always been hand’s down my favourite part of every gathering. There is something so powerful about those of us who have often been kept from The Table or have not been fully welcomed to the table of the Lord out in the wilderness, away from official rules and regulations about the guest list. And that year after Mike’s talk, as I was serving communion, a woman came to me and shared that that was going to be her story. This was her last hurrah with Christianity. She was leaving the Christian religion and we were her final farewell because she wanted to leave with a good experience as her last experience with the Church and she trusted us for that. So I served her the sacraments, we had a good cry together. And it felt like such a privilege to send her out on a different path in the wilderness than perhaps the one we’re on. And as Mike said, she was moving towards health, and beauty and growth and I felt incredibly honoured to be a part of this moment in her journey. I think there is no better way to walk forward into something new - whatever the future holds - than with the bread and the wine and a blessing from those who represent your former life.
JEFF: It’s always an honor when someone entrusts you with that kind of candor and vulnerability, and I can’t imagine it was easy, in a room where most of us were all Jesus Jesus Jesus. And of course I want someone in that position, in that moment, to be blessed. One of the great acts of hospitality that Mike offers is room for people who identify as atheist or agnostic or skeptic or whatever. He identified for a time as an atheist. And I think neither you nor I, Sarah, can say that we ever have, can we?
SARAH: You know, I can’t. I can’t say that atheist is a label or experience that I’ve had yet. I’ve definitely been agnostic. But my deconstructions or grapplings have almost always been with organized religion, with the Church - like years saying “I am not a Christian anymore” kind of “done” - but I think I’ve always been convinced of a loving and kind God.
JEFF: I think I have too to a degree. I had a long period when I didn’t feel up to being in church, but I think it’s important to make a distinction between church and God. For a long time, I confused the two of them, and I suffered because of that confusion. And then I’ve had seasons—years, months, weeks, maybe yesterday—where the label “agnostic” has great appeal, and maybe we can talk about that more some other time. But even though we’ve both ended up all Jesus-y, I think for some people an evolving faith does lead to a belief that God probably isn’t out there. We are not embarrassed to say that we believe in the Jesus story most days, but there’s no point pretending that others, even in the Evolving Faith community, aren’t in the same place that we are. And how do we make space in these conversations for those people to be seen and heard and recognized? I think Mike gave us a great gift in doing that.
SARAH: He absolutely did. He absolutely did. I want, I want to talk a bit about Mike’s experience with Christian mysticism.
JEFF: I knew you would. Just a bit?
SARAH: I think we both know I say “a bit” and that means “settle in because you’re going to be here for a while.” So this, this is an interesting one for me. You know that I lean towards Christian mysticism myself. I’m charismatic, I came to faith in third wave charismatic churches in western Canada, and in fact, I’ve found that the further I have gone into deconstruction or the wilderness, the more charismatic I’ve become which was very unexpected.I thought for sure that would literally be the first thing I left behind. And now from this vantage point, I genuinely believe that mysticism is deeply helpful for those of us who find ourselves without answers about God.
JEFF: So I want to be clear. What do you mean when you say “mysticism”?
SARAH: Wanting to be clear about mysticism. That’s great.
JEFF: You’re welcome.
SARAH: I know there are a lot of ways to define this and probably some people would say my way is wrong. But this is my way of understanding it. I think of it as encounters or experiences with the mysteries of God which confirm or wake us up to the presence of God in our lives and in the world. There is so much that is unknowable about God and the path of Christian mysticism - one that is you know contemplative, spiritual and also embodied - is also a place of encounter with God. So there are practices like meditation or prayer or even communion. Or like Mike had, it’s the ball of light and the wash of love he experienced. It’s the practice of the presence of God but there’s room to breathe or experience or be surprised by God.
And I’ve had dozens of these experiences myself - I cannot explain them but I know it’s real. I think we see these experiences with God a lot in Scripture and we’ve lost it in our rational way of reading the text or our demand for God to be rational and logical and certain and predictable in our lives. But for those of us who come from a charismatic tradition or a Pentecostal one perhaps we’ve always kind of made room for the weirdness of God. And we loved it. And sometimes that can be abused, absolutely, manipulated, exploited and that is part of my own journey too and has been part of my healing journey. But I find that those experiences of knowing the love of God in the very middle of not knowing much else has been very healing in the wilderness.
So for those of us who find ourselves in a season when our answers about God have disappeared, mysticism reminds us that God is still here and not interested in playing by our rules. It gives us permission to seek God outside the box that we have created for God or the box that was created for us about God. And now you can encounter God in community, in silence, in meditation, in nature, in divine experiences like what Mike had. I talked a lot about this in my latest book, Miracles and Other Reasonable Things because I wanted a place to explore the disruptive and insistent kindness of the Holy Spirit in this way. It’s not “more certainty” but more room, more wildness, more openness and generosity.
So I know I’m going on. So I’ll just say this and we can move on. But the way I think it matters for us and for our community and for all our friends here is that if you grew up in an evangelical context, you were told “here are the five things you do to feel close to God.” And they’re usually things like having quiet time - and that better be in the morning, right? You go to church, you pay your tithe, you do a bible study, you evangelize. That sort of thing. And I don't mean to be mocking them. I think it sounded a bit mocking in how I was doing that, but I know that there's a lot of people who genuinely connect with God still, in those ways. I don't mean to poo-poo that, but oftentimes, if those ways of connecting with God have run their course for you, or you simply don't or never did connect with God in those ways, it doesn't mean you don't get to connect with God anymore. It means there are other paths for you, ancient paths that are proven good and life giving like these, I think that Mike was giving us permission to seek those other paths, even if it doesn't line up with how you were taught, or conditioned to expect to connect with God. It reminded me of Meister Eckhart who’s this 13th century mystic. And he said, God becomes and God unbecomes, and that encapsulates, for me the journey of this that we have to let God unbecome sometimes, and this path makes room for that.
JEFF: So I thought it was hilarious when Mike said he thought he invented mysticism.
SARAH: That was good.
JEFF: I think Mike invented mysticism like Columbus discovered the New World, . And I don't mean that as a strike against Mike. I think it's more about this evangelical culture that isolates you from for instance, the early Church mothers and fathers and the culture of origin of Christianity, which is an Eastern culture, as well as so much of Christian history because there's this whole body of thinking that has long cherished an understanding of all that we cannot see, and in our best moments, it’s done with great humility because it acknowledges how much we can’t know. But also speaks to the way that the dominant American culture has made its imprint on evangelicalism in some sectors of society. I come from a culture that has very different assumptions than most white American or European culture does. We are convinced there’s a spiritual realm that we cannot see but that is powerful and that is active and that you can glimpse at moments. So thanks for clarifying what you mean by “mysticism,” because for many of us, especially in non-white cultures, that’s just what we consider to be reality.
SARAH: Exactly! Exactly! And I think that is half the fun of deconstruction: I mean, of course there is loss, there is grief and there is so much to learn! You get to reclaim wonder and curiosity again, be a student instead of an expert. Which is such a relief. There is so much goodness ahead with so many wise and good teachers for us.
JEFF: So speaking of not being an expert, I love how we’ve been avoiding the scientific part of Mike’s talk because neither of us feels qualified to talk about science.
SARAH: Oh you noticed that? Let’s just say this: Mike was so right! He’s so brilliant! He’s good at science-ing! Well done!
JEFF: Good science-ing!
JEFF: So on the Saturday night after everything was over, and all our talks were done, I know you remember this, Sarah, we were all sitting around eating bad pizza and drinking wine that I’d bought at Wal-Mart, and we were just rolling with laughter. And I don’t think science can fully explain the alchemy of friends.
SARAH: Mm-hm.
JEFF: It might have something to say about the dopamine that floods our systems amidst our delight. But it can’t fully comprehend the goodness and beauty of such moments, and I don’t want it to. Likewise, religion can’t prove who constructed these gorgeously complicated bodies and minds that are finding each other in those moments. Religion can’t fully map out beyond reasonable doubt what God did or what God didn’t do, in a way that would ever be satisfactory to scientists. I’m just wondering if can we just accept and even embrace the reality of the space in-between? Or maybe not even the space in-between, which would seem to suggest that science and faith inhabit two different realms that have to be kept apart—but can we just sit in the not knowing? in the not knowing how and where science and faith overlap and don’t? I just think there’s a way to have the kind of curiosity and openheartedness that Mike has while giving up the need for certainty. I wonder whether certainty, whether it’s scientific certainty or the spiritual kind, is an idol that has been so costly to us because as we chase it, we lose sight of so much else.
Listener TIFFANY: Hi, my name is Tiffany, and I'm from Ohio. And I've been trying to cultivate hope in the wilderness by just listening to my intuition Which, silly as it might be, I think, a poem by Shel Silverstein called The Voice really does a good job of explaining. “There’s a voice inside of you, that whispers all day long. I feel that if this is right for me, I know that this is wrong. Now teacher, preacher, parents and our wise man can decide what's right for you. Just listen to the voice that speaks and guide.”
JEFF: So we want to acknowledge that not everybody is able to call in to tell us what's bringing them hope in the wilderness right now. Abbie from Tennessee wrote to tell us and here's what she had to say. (Jeff reading Abbie’s email now) The thing that's giving me hope right now is that my dad. A 60 something white Baptist pastor is going through his own deconstruction. When I was a kid, he preached the gospel of Bill Gothard. And now he preaches his sermons on things like the need for racial reconciliation and social justice. Even came out to support a local Black Lives Matter rally. I don't think he'll ever be as progressive as I am. But I'm so proud of him for doing the work and growing in his faith. And if my old white Baptist republican dad can change, it gives me hope that so many others can.”
JEFF: Thanks for sharing that with us, Abbie, give your dad our warmest regards.
SARAH: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Evolving Faith Podcast. You can find all of the links mentioned, info about Mike McHargue and his important work in the world, along with a full transcript in our show notes at evolvingfaith.com. You can buy all our speakers’ books in our new storefront at bookshop.org/shop/evolvingfaith. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @evolvfaith. And I'm on Twitter and Instagram as @sarahbessey too.
JEFF: You can find Mike McHargue on Twitter at @mikemchargue. His podcast is called Ask Science Mike; I think he just recently posted his 232nd episode, which is mind-blowing to me, given that we’ve just struggled our way through number 7. Anyway! Find me on Twitter at @jeffchu and on Instagram at @byjeffchu.
The Evolving Faith Podcast is produced by us, Sarah Bessey and Jeff Chu, along with Jordan Gass-Poore. Our theme music comes to us from Audrey Assad—”It Is Well with My Soul” is a song I want to sing and believe, but most days I can’t; yet we try. And our interstitial music, that little electronic bop you hear from time to time, was written and performed by Wes Willison.
SARAH: You can join us next week for an episode featuring the powerful and brilliant Sandra Maria Van Opstal as she leads us through the important work of decolonizing our worship in particular. We also have an Evolving Faith Podcast After-Party over on Facebook. So search for us over there and come hang out.
JEFF: If the Evolving Faith Podcast has meant something to you, please review it on Apple Podcasts in particular. It really does make a huge difference. Your likes, shares, subscribes, and honest reviews set up a candle for other people to find us out here in the wilderness. Thank you so much for taking the time to do that small thing - it could make a world of difference for someone who is lonely out there.
SARAH: And until next time - remember that you are loved.
